London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Un_Train_de_Retard
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London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Un_Train_de_Retard » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:17 pm

Good evening Dear Scalefour Member,

I clearly remember that in the beginning of the 80’s concrete sleepers were used on the Hounslow Loop BR’s line. The sleepers and the chairs looked like what you can see on this picture below. (Picture taken from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russelliott/3rd-4th.html#3rd%20rail%20ramps)

Image

I know that we can find P4 scale concrete sleepers but…
Is it possible to find P4 scale concrete sleepers long enough for receiving the 3rd rail ?

Few others questions about :

This kind of chair.
Could I find it in P4 scale ? Or, must I use an other kind of chair ? Then, what kind of chair, you think, will be an interesting compromise solution ?

About turnout.
I can’t remember if that were concrete sleepers or wooden sleepers that were used for their construction on prototype ? What about their construction in P4 scale ? Do you have some advices and ideas ?

Thanks very much.

Regards,

William
William GUILLETON from France

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Russ Elliott
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Russ Elliott » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:27 pm

William

Concerning concrete sleepers for 3-rail plain track, the type most commonly used was a derivative of F24. This type had a stepped-down level land at the ends of the sleeper on which standard conductor rail supports were mounted. The level of the flat land enabled the correct (3") differential between the top heights of the conductor rail and the flat-bottom running rail. See here. The length of these sleepers was a standard 8'6".

CRS components will fit on standard 8'6" sleepers.

There is no F24 derivative available in 4mm scale as far as I am aware.

There were conductor rail supports designed for use with sloped-end concrete sleepers, e.g. F27 derivatives similar to the style moulded on Exactoscale concrete track base, but these supports were special fabricated brackets, and I have never seen any photographic evidence of them. (And if anyone does have a picture of these special brackets, I want it for my 3rd and 4th rails page!)

The running rail chair in the picture you posted is a standard pandrol clip. These are as moulded on the Exactoscale FB sleeper. I have recently seen a Colin Craig etch for the 'twin-spike' FB running rail chair, which seems ingenious, but quite a lot of work. Colin also does etched pandrol baseplates, but I haven't seen these, so maybe others can comment. 'ST' FB chairs are available from C+L, but I'm not sure whether the Southern used these much. The styles of FB rail fixings are numerous.

Turnouts in the 1960-85 era were predominantly on timber sleepers, and I don't think concrete-sleepered turnouts started to come in until mid-1990s (???)

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Un_Train_de_Retard
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Un_Train_de_Retard » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:15 pm

It seems that I have an answer from the track specialist ;)

Thanks very much.

I will do some brainstorming to find a solution to make those concrete sleepers and pandrol clips.

William
William GUILLETON from France

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Un_Train_de_Retard
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Un_Train_de_Retard » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:46 am

Bonjour Railway Modelers

At least I am back to my subject !
I finaly find what I was looking for : http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=PEIL-112

What are your point of view about Peco code 82 rail ? Or should I prefer C+L Finescale product ?

Merci for your answers.
William GUILLETON from France

Terry Bendall
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:31 am

Russ Elliott wrote: I have recently seen a Colin Craig etch for the 'twin-spike' FB running rail chair, which seems ingenious, but quite a lot of work. Colin also does etched pandrol baseplates, but I haven't seen these, so maybe others can comment.


I have some of the Colin Craig components that Russ mentions. The BR1 elastic spiked baseplates are etched in two parts. The part with the spikes is bent up and passed through the base and then soldered to each other. The rail is then soldered in place and the spikes bent over. The BR2 Macbeth spiked baseplate is similar in constuction. Both look very nice when done but are time consuming and fiddly to put together. In my view the finished product is well worth it. On both of these the base gives the 1 in 2O inclination required for plain track.

Colin also supplies PAN 11 pandrol clips. These use an etched base again and the clips are cast in pewter and are in two parts. These are glued to each side of the rail after it has been soldered to the base plates. Again very nice but rather expensive. All of these are designed for use with copper clad sleepers which will need to have an insulation gap cut in the copper.

Colin has had templates for flat bottom turnouts available for some time and is nearly ready to produce kits for these - he is currently waiting for some parts to be made. There are some very interesting articles by Colin on the website of the Manchester Model Railway Society with some good pictures.

Terry Bendall

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Un_Train_de_Retard
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Un_Train_de_Retard » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:37 pm

Oups ! I missed this (important) part of Russ Elliot's message. ;)

Thank's Terry for sharing your experience.

I notice that Colin Graig gives the possibility to contact him on his website. I will contact him for further informations as the problem to me is that I am not yet familiarised to this English technical terminology.

William
William GUILLETON from France

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grovenor-2685
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:41 pm

At least I am back to my subject !
I finaly find what I was looking for : http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details ... e=PEIL-112

What are your point of view about Peco code 82 rail ? Or should I prefer C+L Finescale product ?

Merci for your answers.


There is nothing wrong with the PEco code 82 rail but you might find it hard to find a stockist, although I assume Peco dealers can order it on request.

Personally I would use the Exactoscale code 82 as I prefer steel rail, Exactoscale also does Nickel Silver as do C&L. Differences in these rails are very slight, not noticeable to the eye exept for colour in the case of the steel rail, but apparently different enough for Colin Craig to produce different Jigs for them.
Exactoscale also provide concrete sleepers ready to slide on the rail so is very close to resdy to run. Wherever you get the sleepers you will have to file the flats on the ends for the 3rd rail fittings.
Regards
Keith
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Un_Train_de_Retard
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Un_Train_de_Retard » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:21 pm

Thank you for all those informations

I think that I would use the steel rail too for its aspect. I also read that it offers a better grip. Is it right ?
What are the other benefits of the steel rail ? But Perhaps it would be interesting to open another topic to answer this question ?

I am not sure to be interested by Exactoscale's concrete sleepers, this idea of (almost) "ready to run" doesn't motivate me much !

I read the experience of a french modeler who realised a model of french concrete sleepers with resin. I contacted him to have more informations about this realisation.

Regards

William
William GUILLETON from France

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Rod Cameron
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Rod Cameron » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:29 am

Un_Train_de_Retard wrote:I think that I would use the steel rail too for its aspect. I also read that it offers a better grip. Is it right ?
What are the other benefits of the steel rail ? But Perhaps it would be interesting to open another topic to answer this question ?


William - you may find some answers to the question of benefits of steel rail here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=878
Rod

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Re6/6
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Re6/6 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:25 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the PEco code 82 rail but you might find it hard to find a stockist, although i assume Peco dealers can order it on request.

Personally I would use the Exactoscale code 82 as I prefer steel rail, Exactoscale also does Nickel Silver as do C&L. Differences in these rails are very slight, not noticeable to the eye exept for colour in the case of the steel rail, but apparently different enough for Colin Craig to produce different Jigs for them.
Exactoscale also provide concrete sleepers ready to slide on the rail so is very close to resdy to run. Wherever you get the sleepers you will have to file the flats on the ends for the 3rd rail fittings.
Regards
Keith


I would advise caution about the interchangability of the various 4mm F/B rail. I discovered that they are certainly not all the same. I had to replace some Exactoscale F/B track using their rail and bases and noticed that the width of the rail head was narrower than the rail that I had used on the rest of the layout. It was wider by 0.2mm.I checked all the plain line and it was found to be tight to gauge using the Society's brass oblong gauge.I had mistakenly used what I think was C&L rail in the Exactoscale bases, giving 0.4mm gauge narrowing. I have checked that the bases were not the early ones which I have been advised were known to be tight to gauge.


The layout has suffered serious 'undercarriage' problems and is being rebuilt, so the opportunity will be taken to replace all the trackwork with the correct rail and for 'stock' pointwork with the excellent new Colin Craig range.

I had used the Peco plastic 'Pandrol' clips on the pointwork but these are cosmetically around 50% too big. I felt that it was better to have overscale cosmetic stuff on the pointwork rather than just plain copperclad construction. Fortunately Colin Craig does do much finer whitemetal scale castings which fit the bill nicely. (Usual disclaimer!)

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John

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grovenor-2685
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Here is the rail section with scale dimensions added for the head and foot widths and the height. then you can compare with whatever rail you have.
Regards
BS113A-rail.gif
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Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Re6/6
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Re: London Suburban and Southern lines 1960 to 1985 tracks

Postby Re6/6 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:54 pm

Very many thanks Keith. That is very useful. I can now sort out what is what! I've got three makes. Peco, Exacto and C&L!
John


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